Dr. McGrath, how would you describe the spirituality of Evangelicalism?Well, I think that one word that does come to mind is this: rootless. What I mean is, evangelicals do seem to be searching for enhanced spiritual depth to their lives, but they seem to be doing so in a very random way, and there is a lot of flirtation with popular psychology and so on. And it seems to me that one of the things I sense is missing, which I think would be enormously helpful is wrestling with the spirituality of the Reformation period. It seems to me that that could be an enormously valuable resource for the modern evangelicals.
What biblical or Reformation doctrines specifically are you thinking of? Why the Reformation as opposed to another period?Well, I think that all of us who call ourselves Protestants in any sense of the word owe our origins to the Reformation. And one way in which any movement in history can regain a sense of direction and vitality is by going back to its roots. And I think all of us need to ask what it means to be a Protestant. One of the best ways of doing that is simply by going back to the Reformation to renew and refresh ourselves before going forward again into the future. They give us ideas, they give us a stimulus, and that can be enormously helpful.
I can hear the listener right now saying, “I don’t want to be Protestant; I want to be biblical. I don’t care about the titles. Why not go back to the Bible? Why look at a particular period of history and say that is the kind of spirituality we need to emulate?There are two reasons why I think the Reformation is enormously helpful. One is because if you summarize the spirituality of the Reformation in a phrase, it’s “going back to Christian roots,” “going back to Scripture,” and the Reformation is giving us a classic example of a spirituality which is going straight back to Scripture. We can learn from that model. We can say, here’s how a very important generation did exactly what we’d like to do today. They can give us some hints, some ideas, about how to go ahead.
What are some of the biblical doctrines you’re thinking of?I think the doctrine of justification by faith is a very good example. Most people would regard that doctrine as being totally unfamiliar and yet it expresses so many central biblical insights. I really do think that we need to recover at least some of those today. We’ve lost them. I think the time has come to try and get them back again.
Well you’re certainly identifying the goals of this magazine and our organization. When we talk about biblical spirituality, aren’t we talking about evangelism, prayer, missions, going to church, working for a Christian organization…is that what we mean by spiritual?Well, the word spirituality isn’t all that helpful, I think. Spirituality suggests something very monastic, in other words, care of the spirit, withdrawing from the world, that sort of thing. There are some very negative overtones there. For the Reformation period, and I think for the biblical writers as well, the Christian life is all about leading to what Paul calls the spiritual person. That means the person who is open to God, faithful to God, and obedient to God in every aspect of life. I think the right way of thinking about a biblical spirituality is this: It’s a spirituality which takes you out of the church and puts you right in the world to serve God there. And I think that we need to recover that idea: serving God in the world.
Francis Schaeffer has called contemporary evangelical spirituality an “evangelical ghetto.” I know we even have our own Christian activities calendar in southern California so that we can entertain ourselves without leaving the monastery, so to speak. That, you say, is a skewed spirituality. Is it, in fact, a spirituality not terribly unfamiliar to the reformers?I think the reformers have something to say to us here. They recognize – and I think we must recognize it, too – the need for us to nurture our faith, and that must be done inside the community of faith. The church is there to nurture us, to deepen our faith. Why? To send us out into the world to work and to witness there.
We talk about the Protestant work ethic…Do you think that it is an aspect of evangelical spirituality which is, to some degree, lost?I think it is. To me, the Protestant work ethic is saying this: To work for God, you do not need to become a monk. Rather, what you need is to bring to your work a determination to glorify God in it, even the most menial of tasks. The reformers said that even in the sweeping of a room you can glorify God. That brings a new depth of meaning to ordinary, everyday labors. It means you do them with new commitment, with a new level of meaning, and I really do think that we need to recover the idea that we can serve God in our everyday lives, rather than on some special occasions.
Don’t you think that we measure spirituality by, for instance, the usefulness to evangelism? For instance, if I want to be a filmmaker, to be really useful in the kingdom of God, I should produce evangelistic films for a Christian film company rather than work in Hollywood where you’re fighting an uphill battle with “the world”? I think that’s a very fair question. I think all of us have to think through the following question. I am engaged in some kind of business, some kind of career, and that almost certainly reflects my gifts as a person. Maybe God has given me those gifts to serve him as well as to make a living. And so I think that we’re being asked in the first place to identify our gifts and our talents by which we make a living, and just being asked, is there any way that those gifts and talents might find their service to God in his church? But I think there are other things that one could say as well. The main thing I’d like to say is this – and we need to recover the idea of vocation, the idea of being called by God, and that really means this: It means putting your trust in God, that you’re meant to be where you are, and that somehow he can use you right there. And that means being open to opportunities that God may put your way, and being prepared to serve him in totally unexpected ways at your place of work.
Many evangelicals, when they think of spirituality, they think of “I don’t drink, dance, smoke, or chew or go with girls who do.” How would you contrast this type of spirituality with Reformation piety?Luther wrote a book called The Liberty of the Christian, in which he takes up Paul’s phrase, “the glorious liberty of the children of God.” And Luther’s point is simply this: the gospel imposes no strait jacket upon us; rather, it renews us so that, spontaneously, we should be seeking to serve God in our lives. It gives us a new freedom from sin; it breaks the bond of sins, and it doesn’t put new bonds in their place. Naturally, we should want to lead a form of life that conforms to the will of God, not out of a new sense of legalism, but simply out of a sense of thankfulness, and the best of all possible reasons: because we love God. When you fall in love with someone, you naturally want to please them. You do the sorts of things you know they want you to do. Why? Because they’ve laid down the rules? No, simply because that is spontaneous, appropriate, and highly desirable. This is the way you want to live to please the person you love. Evangelical spirituality ought to be highly positive and affirmative. God has done everything for our salvation, so let’s live out a positive, committed life in response.
Tremendous points. We often hear Christians say that to believe in the divinity of Christ or to believe in the Trinity really is irrational and that ultimately the justification for our faith is that it is irrational. We think of some church fathers in the past who have said that I believe because it is irrational. Has that damaged us, that idea that faith and reason are incompatible?I think it has damaged us. Let me take the example you gave; I think it is a very good example. A lot of Christians say, well, we’ve got to take these things on trust – like the divinity of Christ or the Trinity. If we start thinking about them, we’ll discover they’re false and our whole faith will collapse. I think it’s dangerous, I think it’s shallow, and I think it’s very, very uninformed. Why do people feel like this? It seems to me there’s a failing on the part of our pastors and our teachers to ground their people in the bases of these doctrines so that they can be confident in them. I mean, the whole Christian faith stands or falls on the divinity of Christ. Why are people so worried about it? I mean, it seems to me we need to reassure ourselves of the foundations of these doctrines, and the bases are there! It seems to me we need to be encouraging our people to assure themselves of the foundations of their faith. It seems to me there is a lack of serious education for Christians, which I think reflects a lack of intellectual interest on the part of many Christians to think through their faith.
You’re not suggesting, for instance, the Christian who puts in an eight-hour day at the shop has to go to seminary, for instance.No, I’m not. I’m simply saying the Christian faith is one of the most wonderful things that life has to offer. It pays to think about it, to delve its depths. There’s so much there waiting to be discovered; I’m just saying that everybody’s faith could be so much more enriched if they simply took the trouble to follow it out, to think things through, to read more books, to deepen their understanding, not just because they’ll gain from it, but because they’ll be able to tell their friends and help them as well.
We don’t read enough, do we?We don’t read enough and I think one of the problems here is that what we do read is often biographies. In other words, here’s a story of a great Christian. You go away, you learn an awful lot about that great Christian, but you don’t know a lot more about your faith. And it seems to me that somehow we’ve got to create a market for people who want to read about their faith, who want to discover exciting new ways of presenting their faith, who want interesting analogies to help them think through their faith. That, I think, is missing today.
Certainly people like yourself, and J.I. Packer, and R.C. Sproul have shown that is indeed possible. At Oxford you surely must face constant intellectual challenges to Christianity. Surely you must’ve been presented at certain points with challenges of the Christian faith. Have you ever thought, at any point, that Christianity doesn’t stand up to the rigor of modern intellectual challenges? Have we become so sophisticated that Christianity by contrast is weak in the face of the arguments?I don’t think Christianity is weak, but sometimes our perception of it and our presentation of it is weak. I mean, I welcome challenges to my faith, personally, because it encourages me to think it through. I mean, very often when I’m arguing with students, I hear point after point made which I haven’t heard before. It’s an invitation, to think that point through. But you know, I don’t think we’re seeing any new challenges to our faith today. All of the questions being raised have been raised before in some shape or form. The difficulty is, we aren’t giving good answers these days. In the old days, people would be able to give answers for the sort of difficulties that were being raised. Nowadays, very often, you get this sort of response: I just don’t know. I think that is a very inadequate response because the person who is putting to you a challenge to your faith, they might be open to faith if you could just give a good answer. Very often people challenge you about your faith not wanting to challenge you, really, but hoping that you will challenge them. And we’re missing out on an important evangelistic opportunity here by not giving good, convincing replies to their genuine questions.
Very often when we present the gospel, it’s not an intellectual challenge to their presuppositions or their convictions, but it’s a knee-jerk, emotional sort of “God said it, I believe it, that settles it.” Would you say that is one of the deficiencies of our evangelism now?I think that is right; I think that we do need to take people seriously, and if someone says to you, “Well, I’ve always had difficulty believing that Jesus is divine,” for example, you could say, “Well, the Bible says he is. That’s it.” But I don’t think that is a very helpful response. I think a better way would be to say, “Well, I can understand that you find that difficult. It’s a very, very big thing to say. But I think we’re right in saying it. And what I would like to do is try and show you why Christians believe that. Let me start at the beginning.” And just begin to work your way through. Why? Because you’ll be helping that person think through a difficult argument. Also, you’ll be doing yourself a favor by checking out that you really understand this point in the first place.
Has the anti-intellectualism that we’re talking about contributed to an anti-doctrinal bias, too. In other words, is there a relationship between the “God said it, I believe it, that settles it” and not moving on from there, and an anti-doctrinal bias of “I just want to know Jesus, not about Jesus.”I think that’s fair. I think the word doctrine is a turn-off for many people because it suggests a very cerebral type of Christianity, that is, a Christianity that is head knowledge. Well, of course, you’re quite right. Christianity is about the response of the heart to Christ, but it is also about the response of the whole person – not just believing in Jesus, but believing certain things about him. Why should I want to dedicate my entire life to Jesus? What is it about him that makes that response appropriate for me? It seems to me that I have to be able to give an answer and that answer can only be in terms of doctrines about Jesus. Why does Jesus matter so much? Answer: Because Jesus is God incarnate, the Son of God. That’s a doctrine about Jesus which tells me why I am right to put my heart and set it firmly on Jesus.
What can be done, practically, for the person who wants to love God with his or her mind but finds it so difficult. The time is just not there, there are a lot of distractions in the modern world, I’m sure you know. What about that person?Well, I think a very helpful way of taking this forward is to simply suggest that person sets aside one hour a week, no more, and aims in their hour to think through one question which he or she has come across in relation to his or her faith. For example, it may be something somebody has said to them: Why do Christians believe that Jesus is God? Why don’t you think that one through? Get some paper, get some pens, write out your answers, think the thing through. Read books if you can. But always have something there that you can use to deepen your faith. I think you’ll find that one hour is an hour well spent. Who would you spend it with? Well why not people like C.S. Lewis? There are many people like that who will genuinely help you through. If you haven’t read C.S. Lewis’s book Mere Christianity before, that’s a marvelous starting point. It will keep you going for months if necessary, but you come out from that a wiser and a better Christian.
